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Threigia said:
Wow, introductions. I've been so quiet for so long I'm afraid I might have forgotten what all to do. Oh well, here goes. I am Threigia a winged centaur, mostly. There are other pasts rattling back in the closet of memories, but that life is the strongest.Â
Hi Threigia. Â Welcome to the forum! 🙂
Sorry getting ahead of myself. I've mostly been involved with an all dragon community. I'm the odd non-dragon there and generally ignored. Prey species aren't given that much attention unless if someone is hungry. I'm rambling again, sorry. I'm sounding rather nuts, my apologies. I've returned to school after a near decade break to work and I find my mind wandering all too easily when not related to school.
You're not sounding nuts, don't worry. 🙂 Â How did you get involved with the dragon community as a non-dragon? Â And, as long as we're on the subject, how did you find us here? 🙂
I have lived in Tucson, Arizona all my life, and I am – painfully shy. Emphasis on the painful part. It hurts to be around others too often. I love science, fantasy, mathematics, mythology, foriegn cultures and religions, and hope my engineering and microbiology studies will lead me to a position in nanotechnology.
That's awesome. 🙂 Â Good luck!
Yes, I believe and magic yet follow science. Either I'm completely mad, or I'm just having way too much fun.
*chuckles* You're not the only one here who does. Â Not everyone thinks the two are mutually exclusive. Â
I'm glad to be here.
Threigia
Glad to have you! 🙂
Â
Jarandhel Dreamsinger said:
Hi again Liryen.
  It's good to see you back.  Hopefully we can get the board here a little more active again.
Awww! Thank you. I think things will definitely get more active in the summer, when more people have the time. 🙂
I've been a little worried that we haven't gotten more traffic on this forum yet, but I think the people we do have on here are a good mix.
Don’t worry, good things will happen in time. 
Liryen said:
I’m coming up on my 1-year anniversary of joining the community. Since then, I feel that I’ve undergone a rather important personal metamorphosis. I feel that spending some time alone has been largely beneficial to me. I have a better handle on my path, on “des’tai” (though I rarely feel inclined to call it that). It has to do with connection and reconstruction, especially as these things pertain to the ‘kin community. Somebody I often respect once said that the community has changed a lot. Tell me, what was it like before?
Jarandhel Dreamsinger said:
It's hard to really describe.  Some of it is obvious… there were a lot more mailing lists, for one, and they were a LOT more active.  Not as many boards and blogs and journals, definitely not as many facebook groups.  A bit more activity on IRC, but overall not a ton of chat.  RL events happened but were relatively few and far between, or else were VERY small local things. Memories were talked about a lot more, and remembered languages.  It wasn't looked down on to have memories and discuss them publicly, even share them on websites, the way it seems to be now.
Why would it be looked down upon? I can understand being nervous about discussing anything of that nature publicly, thanks to trolls and ne’er-do-wells who claim to be a part of the story, but still…
Â
You can still see that in a lot of the older otherkin websites; take the old Elven Realities mailing list webpage from Rialian's site as an example, it contains a lot of things that people remembered in the early days of the community. Stories of how people Awakened as otherkin were also more prevalent; I can't really remember the last time I saw someone post one of those.
*Nods*. I’m planning on writing more about mine in the next couple of weeks, if you’d like to see those before I publish them. I’ve had mixed feelings about creating my site. On the one hand, I don’t want my efforts to be rewarded by trolls; on the other, it could make a difference and possibly even help someone else. As time goes by, I think I’m just going to risk it.
I feel like all of this is just a description of symptoms, though. Â Something is fundamentally different about the otherkin community now than it was then, the entire atmosphere has changed.
That’s exactly what I suspected. A different feel altogether. There’s a part of me that wishes I’d been older back then, in the Becoming process I’m in now. But, I guess everything happens for a reason.
If you can, get on a few of the older mailing lists and take a look at their archives from around 1999 or so. Â I think the difference is pretty visible, if you look.
I definitely want to. 🙂 Maybe it’s foolish to think that I could even begin to recreate something as elusive as an atmosphere, but I want to try.
I think most otherkin do need to try to learn more about their cultures and about themselves as individuals, rather than working with their otherness as some sort of archetype or totem. Â I've been criticized in the past for not automagiically understanding how permaculture == elven, but I look at what we've actually remembered of the history of various elven races and I see cultures which have had battles that left permanent magical scars on the faces of their worlds, and in some cases may have destroyed worlds entirely. Â To me, that doesn't sound like the actions of a race that are more instinctively in tune with nature than humans. Â IF permaculture is a part of any elven society, and I don't really doubt that in some cases it is, I suspect it may have grown out of a reaction to such events in their histories rather than simply being part of the elven makeup. Â So I'd want to work with and honor that aspect of their culture (and learn from anything they might know about the practice of permaculture that humans do not, and vice versa), rather than just chalking it up as “Well, I'm an Elfâ„¢, so I hug trees.”
*laughs softly*. This makes a lot of sense. I’m continuously amazed by how you just debunk these commonly-accepted misconceptions that settle in the mass consciousness, and shed light on them. We’re just so programmed to think that elves and fairies == permaculture. And I think it’s an easy misconception to fall for.
I may find myself quoting you here for many months to come. 
Welcome back! :)Â
Thanks! I’m glad to be back. 🙂
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Awww! Thank you. I think things will definitely get more active in the summer, when more people have the time. 🙂
Yeah, you're probably right. Â 🙂
Don't worry, good things will happen in time.Â
I think so too. 🙂 Â And I'm going to keep working to that end.
Why would it be looked down upon? I can understand being nervous about discussing anything of that nature publicly, thanks to trolls and ne'er-do-wells who claim to be a part of the story, but still…
There's a few different ones that I've seen, though the groups shift and overlap a bit.
There's the crowd that wants to keep their memories out of the hands of trolls and roleplayers.  I sympathize with them, I wince every time I see the word vor'jen appropriated to describe “dark elves” or “elven vampires” online, but I honestly believe the best way to counter both groups is to keep putting out high-quality information to drown out the noise.  I don't think the answer is for the more genuine otherkin to go into hiding and only speak of memories behind closed doors or among themselves on private lists and forums.  I think that path just leads to our community stagnating, and new seekers not being able to find accurate information anymore.
The second group I see is the “forget the past, live in the present!” types. Â For them, it's all about the here-and-now. Â And I hate to break it to them, but here-and-now we are ALL physically human. Â If you feel like you're in the wrong body, if you feel like you have the soul of something non-human, if you feel (for lack of a better word) “trans-specified” then where does that come from? Â It doesn't come from what you are here-and-now. Â I personally think it comes down to past-life experiences that have left an imprint on you, whether you've recovered memories or not. Â This is the group that also seems most prone to treating being otherkin like having a totem, though I will say that a lot of therians fall into this group and their community has IMO been better at making a distinction between the two experiences.
The last group are the “It's all in your/our heads!” folks. Â The psychological otherkin. Â They don't believe in past lives and consider any type of memories, particularly the more extensive ones, to be fluffy and/or roleplaying. Â I believe you've encountered this set recently, elsewhere.
*Nods*. I'm planning on writing more about mine in the next couple of weeks, if you'd like to see those before I publish them. I've had mixed feelings about creating my site. On the one hand, I don't want my efforts to be rewarded by trolls; on the other, it could make a difference and possibly even help someone else. As time goes by, I think I'm just going to risk it.
I would encourage doing so. Â Frankly I think there were a lot fewer trolls in the community when people were less afraid to post things like that. Â I think opening things up again and being more transparent as a community would help. Â We've responded to trolls by retreating into the shadows and trying to hide, but trolls thrive in darkness. Â I want to bring in the light again.
That's exactly what I suspected. A different feel altogether. There's a part of me that wishes I'd been older back then, in the Becoming process I'm in now. But, I guess everything happens for a reason.
*nods* Back then, it felt to me like we were working towards something as a community.  Trying to piece our pasts together, trying to understand them, in some cases trying to find a way “home”.  We were collaborating, if not organized.  These days, I don't feel like the community as a whole is doing anything.  It just seems to exist, and tenuously at that.  We're certainly not collaborating on anything.  Most of us are barely speaking to one another anymore; there was a time when you could go from one list to another or one forum to another and if you were reasonably active you'd be met with a half dozen or more “oh, I've seen you on x before!”  Especially if you'd been around a while.  Hell, when I first went to Thresholds in 1999, I'd been in the community slightly over a month and several people there already recognized me from the lists.
These days, if I'm recognized while introducing myself on a different forum it's usually by Arethinn who manages to beat me there. Â On one chat room I was cordially welcomed and asked if I had any questions about being otherkin (their standard newbie greeting), and I just had to wince. Â Right there, at the very top of the chat room, was a prominent link to the Otherkin FAQ. Â I'm listed by name as one of the contributors. Â And I logged onto the chat as jarindreamsinger, not jarandhel or anything like that. Â Exactly the same name as on the FAQ.
I definitely want to. 🙂 Maybe it's foolish to think that I could even begin to recreate something as elusive as an atmosphere, but I want to try.
If it's foolish, then let's tilt at windmills together. “One man scorned and covered with scars still strove with his last ounce of courage to reach the unreachable stars; and the world will be better for this.†🙂
*laughs softly*. This makes a lot of sense. I'm continuously amazed by how you just debunk these commonly-accepted misconceptions that settle in the mass consciousness, and shed light on them.
I try, though there are a lot of people who wouldn't agree with me on any of this. Â You'd be surprised at the fierceness of some of the arguments I've had on these subjects.
We're just so programmed to think that elves and fairies == permaculture. And I think it's an easy misconception to fall for.
*nods* Yeah. Â I've even seen some of the people whose memories I KNOW included serious magical scars on their elven homeworlds (see “ancient blasted area” on this map, for instance) spouting the elves == permaculture line. Â As for fae, I have to wonder if the folks who think fae==permaculture have ever had any contact with house-dwelling fae like the domovoi. Â They've been around for a very long time. Â Not all fae, even in myths, are creatures of the woods and wilds or even the fields and gardens. Â Nor are our modern, technological cities without fae of their own.
I may find myself quoting you here for many months to come.Â
*chuckles* Thank you. Â 🙂
Â
Jarandhel Dreamsinger said:
There's a few different ones that I've seen, though the groups shift and overlap a bit.
There's the crowd that wants to keep their memories out of the hands of trolls and roleplayers.  I sympathize with them, I wince every time I see the word vor'jen appropriated to describe “dark elves” or “elven vampires” online, but I honestly believe the best way to counter both groups is to keep putting out high-quality information to drown out the noise.
What the heck’s an elven vampire?
I don't think the answer is for the more genuine otherkin to go into hiding and only speak of memories behind closed doors or among themselves on private lists and forums. Â I think that path just leads to our community stagnating, and new seekers not being able to find accurate information anymore.
I agree…
The second group I see is the “forget the past, live in the present!” types. Â For them, it's all about the here-and-now. Â And I hate to break it to them, but here-and-now we are ALL physically human. Â If you feel like you're in the wrong body, if you feel like you have the soul of something non-human, if you feel (for lack of a better word) “trans-specified” then where does that come from? Â It doesn't come from what you are here-and-now. Â I personally think it comes down to past-life experiences that have left an imprint on you, whether you've recovered memories or not. Â This is the group that also seems most prone to treating being otherkin like having a totem, though I will say that a lot of therians fall into this group and their community has IMO been better at making a distinction between the two experiences.
I was drawn into this line of thinking for a little while in the beginning. I think there’s some truth to the fact that we have to accept being here now, but I disagree with the idea of forsaking the past, because I could write several books on the way that my past (this-life) has shaped my personality and influenced who I am today. It impacts me tremendously. And I know that my past lives, particularly my most recent one, have also had a major influence.
The last group are the “It's all in your/our heads!” folks. Â The psychological otherkin. Â They don't believe in past lives and consider any type of memories, particularly the more extensive ones, to be fluffy and/or roleplaying. Â I believe you've encountered this set recently, elsewhere.
*shrugs*. I’m not sure if the people I’m thinking of didn’t believe in their own memories. From what I could gather, I think they were just opposed to the Elenari because of the roleplayers or whatever who wandered in once.
Frankly I think there were a lot fewer trolls in the community when people were less afraid to post things like that. Â I think opening things up again and being more transparent as a community would help. Â We've responded to trolls by retreating into the shadows and trying to hide, but trolls thrive in darkness. Â I want to bring in the light again.
I hear ya. And hopefully, that’s what this project will help to do. 🙂
Back then, it felt to me like we were working towards something as a community.  Trying to piece our pasts together, trying to understand them, in some cases trying to find a way “home”.  We were collaborating, if not organized.  These days, I don't feel like the community as a whole is doing anything.  It just seems to exist, and tenuously at that.  We're certainly not collaborating on anything.  Most of us are barely speaking to one another anymore; there was a time when you could go from one list to another or one forum to another and if you were reasonably active you'd be met with a half dozen or more “oh, I've seen you on x before!”  Especially if you'd been around a while.  Hell, when I first went to Thresholds in 1999, I'd been in the community slightly over a month and several people there already recognized me from the lists.
Wow. But yeah, I think I know what you mean. It almost reflects the change that seemed to come over society in general after the turn of the millennium. I was a child of the 90s – and I could swear there was something different about the world, or at least my little world, up to that point. I can’t put my finger on it, but something has definitely changed. It’s almost like there was “more” back then. If that makes sense.
I still have faith in the future, though. Maybe this is just the ebb and flow of things, the low point before the wheel of fortune turns again…
These days, if I'm recognized while introducing myself on a different forum it's usually by Arethinn who manages to beat me there. Â On one chat room I was cordially welcomed and asked if I had any questions about being otherkin (their standard newbie greeting), and I just had to wince. Â Right there, at the very top of the chat room, was a prominent link to the Otherkin FAQ. Â I'm listed by name as one of the contributors. Â And I logged onto the chat as jarindreamsinger, not jarandhel or anything like that. Â Exactly the same name as on the FAQ.
Stupid people are stupid. I guess it was just a blunder on their part, but, um.
If it's foolish, then let's tilt at windmills together. “One man scorned and covered with scars still strove with his last ounce of courage to reach the unreachable stars; and the world will be better for this.†🙂
“I have lived nearly eighteen years, and I have seen life as it is. Pain, misery, hunger … When life itself seems lunatic, who knows where madness lies? Perhaps to be too practical is madness. To surrender dreams — this may be madness.” 🙂
I try, though there are a lot of people who wouldn't agree with me on any of this. Â You'd be surprised at the fierceness of some of the arguments I've had on these subjects.
Well, to each their own, I guess. Though I see a lot of logic in your point of view. Personally, I’m willing to let differences in opinion slide for the sake of remaining on good terms with people.
I've even seen some of the people whose memories I KNOW included serious magical scars on their elven homeworlds (see “ancient blasted area” on this map, for instance) spouting the elves == permaculture line. Â As for fae, I have to wonder if the folks who think fae==permaculture have ever had any contact with house-dwelling fae like the domovoi. Â They've been around for a very long time. Â Not all fae, even in myths, are creatures of the woods and wilds or even the fields and gardens. Â Nor are our modern, technological cities without fae of their own.
*Nods*. I have to say that modern cities don’t often feel “fae” to me. New York City being a notable exception. 😉 But it’s true, and I think what it comes down to in the end is the fact that traits like eco-consciousness have more to do with the makeup of individuals than with races of beings.
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Liryen said:
What the heck's an elven vampire?
http://www.vampires.nu/pages/F…..Topic/4065
Sorry, that's one of the various things about the fluffier side of the otherkin community I really wish I didn't know.
I was drawn into this line of thinking for a little while in the beginning. I think there's some truth to the fact that we have to accept being here now, but I disagree with the idea of forsaking the past, because I could write several books on the way that my past (this-life) has shaped my personality and influenced who I am today. It impacts me tremendously. And I know that my past lives, particularly my most recent one, have also had a major influence.
There's definitely some truth to having to accept being here now, having to accept being human now. Â I agree with that. Â But if that's all we are, if we focus on that to the exclusion of our pasts, then what's the point of considering ourselves otherkin? Â Where can we really go with it, from there? Â Are we just using it to describe vague collections of personality traits? Â In that case, why an elf as opposed to aspergers or ADD? Â Â Â
*shrugs*. I'm not sure if the people I'm thinking of didn't believe in their own memories. From what I could gather, I think they were just opposed to the Elenari because of the roleplayers or whatever who wandered in once.
Sorry, you're right, it wasn't in the thread you were in it was in the original thread that thread got split off from:
http://www.otherkin.com/phpBB3…..038;t=3410
The second to last reply on that thread is the one I was thinking of. Â By noumenon.
I hear ya. And hopefully, that's what this project will help to do. 🙂
That's the plan. 🙂
Wow. But yeah, I think I know what you mean. It almost reflects the change that seemed to come over society in general after the turn of the millennium. I was a child of the 90s – and I could swear there was something different about the world, or at least my little world, up to that point. I can't put my finger on it, but something has definitely changed. It's almost like there was “more” back then. If that makes sense.Yeah, it does.  I've seen at least one other person comment similarly, that the world itself feels different now than it did back then.  Like something's gone out of it.  They pointed to some things that happened in 2000, and then to September 11th, 2001, as their big examples if memory serves.  I dunno, I'm hesitant to connect it to any specific event.  But something does feel different.
Another good example is how the main websites have shifted over the years. Â Take a look at the Otherkin Directory of days gone by:
http://web.archive.org/web/200…..ctory.html
I still have faith in the future, though. Maybe this is just the ebb and flow of things, the low point before the wheel of fortune turns again…
I've been holding onto that hope for years, but things keep hitting lower and lower points. Â So I fight to turn the tide myself, as much as I can.
Stupid people are stupid. I guess it was just a blunder on their part, but, um.
*shrugs* I'm not even saying they were stupid for not recognizing me, I just see it as a sign of how little we're actually connecting with one another in the community anymore. Â
“I have lived nearly eighteen years, and I have seen life as it is. Pain, misery, hunger … When life itself seems lunatic, who knows where madness lies? Perhaps to be too practical is madness. To surrender dreams — this may be madness.” 🙂
*grins* 🙂
Well, to each their own, I guess. Though I see a lot of logic in your point of view. Personally, I'm willing to let differences in opinion slide for the sake of remaining on good terms with people.
Thank you. 🙂 Â With me, in some cases I'm willing to let differences slide, in others I'm not. It depends on the subject. Â If, for example, someone's going around spreading the idea that the “burning times” were a war by the Church on nonhumans and “magic folk”, I don't care how nice the person is I'm not going to let that one slide. Â (This is an example I've actually seen in the community before.)
*Nods*. I have to say that modern cities don't often feel “fae” to me. New York City being a notable exception. 😉
From what I've learned by consciously working with urban fae, I'd say they don't necessary feel the same as their rural cousins but there's definitely a fae feeling to them. Â In some ways they're even more wild, even predatory, than their more traditional counterparts. Â Maybe not as alien, though; they're intimately acquainted with humanity, how could they not be?
But it's true, and I think what it comes down to in the end is the fact that traits like eco-consciousness have more to do with the makeup of individuals than with races of beings.
That statement I'd agree with wholeheartedly.
Â
Jarandhel Dreamsinger said:
http://www.vampires.nu/pages/F…..Topic/4065
Sorry, that's one of the various things about the fluffier side of the otherkin community I really wish I didn't know.
Ahahahahahhaha……*dies laughing*
There's definitely some truth to having to accept being here now, having to accept being human now. Â I agree with that. Â But if that's all we are, if we focus on that to the exclusion of our pasts, then what's the point of considering ourselves otherkin? Â Where can we really go with it, from there? Â Are we just using it to describe vague collections of personality traits? Â In that case, why an elf as opposed to aspergers or ADD?
*nods*. It’s just this deep knowing. I mean, I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I probably have ADD. It runs in my family, and the symptoms (personality traits?) affect me daily. But there’s still a very clear division, for me, between that and my impression of being elven.
Sorry, you're right, it wasn't in the thread you were in it was in the original thread that thread got split off from:
http://www.otherkin.com/phpBB3…..038;t=3410
The second to last reply on that thread is the one I was thinking of. Â By noumenon.
Eh, I’ll look at it when I’m feeling less drained. I’m sure it’s a disappointment.
Yeah, it does. Â I've seen at least one other person comment similarly, that the world itself feels different now than it did back then. Â Like something's gone out of it. Â They pointed to some things that happened in 2000, and then to September 11th, 2001, as their big examples if memory serves. Â I dunno, I'm hesitant to connect it to any specific event. Â But something does feel different.
Likewise. I don’t think it was just 9/11, or even the fact that 3rd grade sucked significantly worse for me than previous school years. There was something else.
Another good example is how the main websites have shifted over the years. Â Take a look at the Otherkin Directory of days gone by:
Again, will do when I have more energy. 🙂
I've been holding onto that hope for years, but things keep hitting lower and lower points. Â So I fight to turn the tide myself, as much as I can.
I’ll help you turn it. 🙂
*shrugs* I'm not even saying they were stupid for not recognizing me, I just see it as a sign of how little we're actually connecting with one another in the community anymore.
Either way, it’s pretty depressing…
Thank you. 🙂 Â With me, in some cases I'm willing to let differences slide, in others I'm not. It depends on the subject. Â If, for example, someone's going around spreading the idea that the “burning times” were a war by the Church on nonhumans and “magic folk”, I don't care how nice the person is I'm not going to let that one slide. Â (This is an example I've actually seen in the community before.)
I can understand that.
From what I've learned by consciously working with urban fae, I'd say they don't necessary feel the same as their rural cousins but there's definitely a fae feeling to them. Â In some ways they're even more wild, even predatory, than their more traditional counterparts. Â Maybe not as alien, though; they're intimately acquainted with humanity, how could they not be?
I’ve never worked with urban fae, but I see your point. 🙂
Jarandhel Dreamsinger said:
The second to last reply on that thread is the one I was thinking of. Â By noumenon.
C’mon community!! Turn back to the magic! Embrace optimism and otherkinicity!
Seriously though, I’m thoroughly tired of mundanity seeping into ‘kin forums like this. It’s this big I-don’t-care sort of attitude, basically, and I think that’s a big part of the difference between the community when it knew better days, and the community now. It just serves to make me even more determined, though.
Another good example is how the main websites have shifted over the years. Â Take a look at the Otherkin Directory of days gone by:
I can literally feel the “lightness” and “flow” in that page. Like it was easier to connect, easier for people to discover themselves, and less heavy, dark, and cluttered. There’s a lack of tension and blockages, less drama, and less opportunity for trolls, etc…in fact, I feel like this atmosphere was actually a magnet for those things and people which were genuine, and high-quality. It was conducive to progress. 🙂
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First something from upthread:
Jarandhel Dreamsinger said:
I've been criticized in the past for not automagiically understanding how permaculture == elven, but I look at what we've actually remembered of the history of various elven races and I see cultures which have had battles that left permanent magical scars on the faces of their worlds, and in some cases may have destroyed worlds entirely.
Mmm, I can see where Rialian is coming from on this, though. It’s not an “equals equals” relationship, no, but I agree that it does resonate in many instances with how the “elven current” is manifesting on Earth at the present time. It’s one of those gather workshop topics which are not “pure otherkin only” but which stand a good chance of being something otherkin/elven types would be interested in.
Liryen said:
C’mon community!! Turn back to the magic! Embrace optimism and otherkinicity!
Seriously though, I’m thoroughly tired of mundanity seeping into ‘kin forums like this. It’s this big I-don’t-care sort of attitude, basically, and I think that’s a big part of the difference between the community when it knew better days, and the community now.
I’m dismayed by the seeming lack of interest in magic and memories and such as well, but I’ve been reminded in the past that not all otherkin are actually of magic-using type, so it’s not fair to expect everyone to be interested in magic and woo-woo stuff here and now (aside from the basic woo of “I believe I my spirit/whatever is not human”). I would think there would be at least SOME leaning towards “mythicness” just inherent in the fact of being not-quite-human, but apparently it’s not always the case. It’s like I have to be careful what Pagan imagery and ritual procedure I use (if any) because there are Christian otherkin for whom it will not resonate/work, etc. (Although IME Christian otherkin are pretty liberal about their beliefs.)
As the community has grown, of course more and more diverse people and thoughts have come in, and you can’t assume any more (as you once almost could) that you will have at least some commonality with any arbitrary other otherkin person. The pool is broad enough now you need to find your own smaller enclaves that you DO have commonality with. (insert lonely sidhe/fae rant here.)
edited to add: A couple other things:
1. Elven vampires: Why not? They’d be elves that happened to be vampiric (that’s “vampiric” considered as a condition or characteristic of one’s subtle body, rather than “vampire” as a state of being or “species” unto itself). At some points in time you could have characterized Celebron this way, for instance. (Not that that’ll mean anything to you, Liryen, as you’ve not met my husband, but for Jarin, that could serve as a point of reference?)
2. The old Otherkin.net webweaving page – oh lol! Now there’s a pastenblasten. Just look at all the oldskool websites on xoom and geocities. I wonder how many of those email addresses are still valid. (My own eristic.net site exists, of course, and I think eshari@eristic.net exists and forwards to arethinn@eristic.net, although I may have deleted that particular account…) It’s interesting how even then you can see the majority of the population being east of the Mississippi and even mostly clustered on the east coast (although there seems to have been something going on in Salem, Oregon!).
Arethinn said:
Mmm, I can see where Rialian is coming from on this, though. It’s not an “equals equals” relationship, no, but I agree that it does resonate in many instances with how the “elven current” is manifesting on Earth at the present time.
Forgive my ignorance, but what’s the “elven current”?
I’m dismayed by the seeming lack of interest in magic and memories and such as well, but I’ve been reminded in the past that not all otherkin are actually of magic-using type, so it’s not fair to expect everyone to be interested in magic and woo-woo stuff here and now (aside from the basic woo of “I believe I my spirit/whatever is not human”).
But some of these people I’m seeing believe that otherkinism is completely psychological; we’ve arrived at a point where “otherkin” is being used as a synonym for “mentally unstable” — by otherkin themselves. I’m using “magic” here in the basic sense, and aren’t memories and such, well – basic?
I would think there would be at least SOME leaning towards “mythicness” just inherent in the fact of being not-quite-human, but apparently it’s not always the case.
So would I, and without any trace of it whatsoever, I’m not sure that I understand how life would be worth living.
It’s like I have to be careful what Pagan imagery and ritual procedure I use (if any) because there are Christian otherkin for whom it will not resonate/work, etc. (Although IME Christian otherkin are pretty liberal about their beliefs.)
Lol. Yeah…I’m just trying to imagine Christian otherkin deep in the heart of Texas. You’re right of course, but where I’m from you’re pretty much one or the other. 😉
As the community has grown, of course more and more diverse people and thoughts have come in, and you can’t assume any more (as you once almost could) that you will have at least some commonality with any arbitrary other otherkin person. The pool is broad enough now you need to find your own smaller enclaves that you DO have commonality with. (insert lonely sidhe/fae rant here.)
That’s very true. It’s why I’m here instead of a dozen other places. 🙂
edited to add: A couple other things:
1. Elven vampires: Why not? They’d be elves that happened to be vampiric (that’s “vampiric” considered as a condition or characteristic of one’s subtle body, rather than “vampire” as a state of being or “species” unto itself).
I wasn’t snarking at the concept in itself; I understand how there could technically be such a thing as an “elven vampire”. I was laughing at the overwhelming fwuffiness of that particular thread. Tangentially, “elven vampire” just doesn’t sound right to me. “Vampiric elf” sounds better to my ear, since “elf” is describing a species, whereas “vampire” in this context is not – rather like “elven shape-shifter” vs. “shape-shifting elf”.
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Liryen said:
Forgive my ignorance, but what’s the “elven current”?
By “current” I mean a flow of energy and being having a particular flavor, similar in basic concept to what are termed the “Seven Rays” in Theosophy (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S….._A._Bailey), or even to elemental energies. So the “elven current” is a kind of abstract concept of “elvenness”. Obviously not all elves are the same, nor am I saying they ultimately some from a single “root race” (although maybe; there’s ideas like that about human races on various planets all ultimately seeded from one place), but there is something about each example of the set that makes us decide it has enough in common to be a member of the set and thus apply the label. There is an elvish “note” or “thread”. And this whole “I hug trees and protect the environment” thing often seems to come along with the package or strand when it pops up in elven otherkin on Earth in many cases, even if it might not make logical sense re: the facts of their actual other lives (if applicable).
But some of these people I’m seeing believe that otherkinism is completely psychological; we’ve arrived at a point where “otherkin” is being used as a synonym for “mentally unstable” — by otherkin themselves.
Um, I don’t see how “for me it’s an entirely psychological phenomenon” equates to “therefore, I am labelling myself as mentally unstable”. Psychological base != mental disorder.
Arethinn said:
By “current” I mean a flow of energy and being having a particular flavor, similar in basic concept to what are termed the “Seven Rays” in Theosophy (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S….._A._Bailey), or even to elemental energies. So the “elven current” is a kind of abstract concept of “elvenness”. Obviously not all elves are the same, nor am I saying they ultimately some from a single “root race” (although maybe; there’s ideas like that about human races on various planets all ultimately seeded from one place), but there is something about each example of the set that makes us decide it has enough in common to be a member of the set and thus apply the label. There is an elvish “note” or “thread”.
Ahh, ok, gotcha. I was thinking about this a few days ago, and I do think that it seems like the most likely explanation for why we apply “elf” to such a wide range of people. Although I don’t know if that’s all there is to it. If an energetic current makes one an elf, is it possible for anyone to become attuned to it?
And this whole “I hug trees and protect the environment” thing often seems to come along with the package or strand when it pops up in elven otherkin on Earth in many cases, even if it might not make logical sense re: the facts of their actual other lives (if applicable).
Mmm, I don’t know. I wouldn’t say that it really comes with the package – we have sea elves who identify more with water, for instance, and elves who prefer plains or (probably) even cities. I do hug trees on occasion, but then, the few memories I’ve managed to retrieve of my own life (lives?) have been of woodland areas, mainly, with a hint of mountains and then some areas that look like plains or even sci fi worlds. If an elf who had lived a full, happy life in a high-tech environment without many trees reincarnated here and got involved with the otherkin subculture, would they adopt the trees thing because it resonated, or because they felt the peer pressure to do so? I can’t really answer that question, but my hypothetical guess is that it’d be more the latter*. Meaning no disrespect, it just seems rather off to me to assume that The Trees Thing™ is part and parcel of the current. Same with concern for the environment.
Um, I don’t see how “for me it’s an entirely psychological phenomenon” equates to “therefore, I am labelling myself as mentally unstable”. Psychological base != mental disorder.
I didn’t think so. But I know I’ve seen it out there somewhere, and that’s why I brought it up.
*If it did resonate, I would attribute this to an individual thing.
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Liryen said:
If an energetic current makes one an elf, is it possible for anyone to become attuned to it?
Yes and no.
This is a two part question here actually. Yes, I think it is possible for someone to “tune in” and “become” – but possibly not 100% from scratch, and it’s not as easy as “ommm, ommm, now I’m an elf”. It is a conscious process of magical transformation which might never end throughout one’s lifetime. In fact, I think all otherkin are doing this to one degree or another.
As for “an energetic current makes one an elf”, that seems to be misrepresenting it a bit and I can’t put my finger on exactly why. The “elven current” is its own thing; like springs it bubbles up and manifests and elves, and/or otherkin elves, are… crystal lattice structures, or fur/feather patterns, or characteristic sets of plants and animals in a biome. They’re… caused, I guess is what I’m saying? I know this doesn’t make a lot of sense here.
OTOH saying “you must have elven feel to be an elf,” that you must carry the spark of that current inside, sounds perfectly correct to me. Not exactly “it’s merely this one thing that makes you an elf” but if you are an elf you will have it, and if you are not, you will not. (I don’t. I’m not an elf!)
Mmm, I don’t know. I wouldn’t say that it really comes with the package – we have sea elves who identify more with water, for instance
Well, duh. 
Don’t take it too literally. “I hug trees” = “treehugger”. Dirt-lover. Eco-freak. 😉 I wasn’t making a statement that there is a 1-1 correspondence with elves and forests; obviously there are those who resonate with other kinds of land, just as with humans. But this is what I meant by on Earth right now – of course there are exceptions, but it just seems to be the case that the “elven flavor” we have here often is connected with trees. It is not that I am assuming this – it’s that I’ve observed it to be common.
Arethinn said:
Yes and no.
This is a two part question here actually. Yes, I think it is possible for someone to “tune in” and “become” – but possibly not 100% from scratch, and it’s not as easy as “ommm, ommm, now I’m an elf”. It is a conscious process of magical transformation which might never end throughout one’s lifetime. In fact, I think all otherkin are doing this to one degree or another.
*nods*. That definitely feels true to me.
As for “an energetic current makes one an elf”, that seems to be misrepresenting it a bit and I can’t put my finger on exactly why. The “elven current” is its own thing; like springs it bubbles up and manifests and elves, and/or otherkin elves, are… crystal lattice structures, or fur/feather patterns, or characteristic sets of plants and animals in a biome. They’re… caused, I guess is what I’m saying? I know this doesn’t make a lot of sense here.
No, actually it makes a lot of sense – I know that this is all somewhat hard to verbalize; I guess what I was trying to say was something more along the lines of “elvish feel”, but it didn’t come out that way. I like the first and third analogies, by the way – they kind of resonate for me.
OTOH saying “you must have elven feel to be an elf,” that you must carry the spark of that current inside, sounds perfectly correct to me. Not exactly “it’s merely this one thing that makes you an elf” but if you are an elf you will have it, and if you are not, you will not.
Right. Actually, this is one of the clearest explanations for what elves *are* that I’ve seen in quite a while. I think historically, we’ve never really known, and I don’t even remember (either literally or instinctively) whether I could have defined it when I was an elf (it sounds wrong to say “was”, but you know what I mean).
Well, duh.
*grins*. Yeah…I was using it in more of a general sense, i.e. “I hug trees” = “act like a general hippie freak” (and yes, occasionally I do literally hug ’em :)). Then I was like, “Oh crap, that sounded like I took it waaay too literally…”
I wasn’t making a statement that there is a 1-1 correspondence with elves and forests; obviously there are those who resonate with other kinds of land, just as with humans. But this is what I meant by on Earth right now – of course there are exceptions, but it just seems to be the case that the “elven flavor” we have here often is connected with trees. It is not that I am assuming this – it’s that I’ve observed it to be common.
My apologies, Arethinn. I haven’t met all that many elves, sadly, so I couldn’t really say.
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Wow, I'm a bit behind in my replies here… sorry about that, got swamped with work, then went away on vacation for a week with Claude, Fei, Joshua, NightStorm, windigofer, technobushi, and some others who are not members of this forum, then came back to even more work. Â Just now starting to really even out again…Â 
So, let's see here… I guess I'll mainly respond to the highlights and questions/comments that have been directed at me… and occasional random stuff that I feel like commenting on anyway, starting with this:
Likewise. I don't think it was just 9/11, or even the fact that 3rd grade sucked significantly worse for me than previous school years. There was something else.
Third grade during 9/11? Â Gods, I feel old…
I can literally feel the “lightness” and “flow” in that page. Like it was easier to connect, easier for people to discover themselves, and less heavy, dark, and cluttered. There's a lack of tension and blockages, less drama, and less opportunity for trolls, etc…in fact, I feel like this atmosphere was actually a magnet for those things and people which were genuine, and high-quality. It was conducive to progress. 🙂
Oh, don't let it fool you, there was quite a bit of tension and drama in the community even then, and more than a few trolls too. Â But something was different… it was easier to find people to connect with, somehow. Â Most of the people I still really deeply consider Family in the community I found during that period.
Mmm, I can see where Rialian is coming from on this, though. It's not an “equals equals” relationship, no, but I agree that it does resonate in many instances with how the “elven current” is manifesting on Earth at the present time. It's one of those gather workshop topics which are not “pure otherkin only” but which stand a good chance of being something otherkin/elven types would be interested in.
It's not just Rialian, though I would say he's one of the primary folks pushing this interpretation of elves and has (as of when I last attended) largely turned his gather from an otherkin gather into a permaculture intensive.  He was also the first person I know of in the community to push this idea of “elven” permaculture. Personally, I don't really buy the connection with the “elven current” (nor do I buy into the idea of an abstract “elven current” in the first place but that's a seperate topic.) There are tons of things which otherkin as a group would be/are interested in.  For years we've noted that otherkin tend quite frequently to end up in tech-related jobs.  Particularly elves.  Should we start saying that working with ubuntu or other varieties of Linux is connected with the “elven current” and hold workshops on that at otherkin gathers?  To me it just seems to get a bit silly.
Otherkin, even a large number thereof, can share an interest without it becoming a defining otherkin trait. Â I'm interested in permaculture myself but you know why? Â Because it's *neat* and *useful*, not because I'm an elf or any other type of otherkin. Â But if I want to read forums about permaculture or attend gatherings dedicated to it, I will. Â I really don't want it taking over otherkin forums and otherkin gatherings I'm part of like some invasive species of plant growing out of control, where it becomes the primary topic of conversation with little to no mention of actually being otherkin.
Now, if there were some actual memories of elves engaged in permaculture-type practices on their own worlds, or even ways in which elves have adapted permaculture practices to be different from standard human permaculture, that'd be entirely different and I'd love to attend a workshop on that topic. So far, I haven't seen anything like that. Â The workshops and discussions I've seen have all tended to be permaculture 101 with the idea that the connections with being otherkin or magic should be implicit. Â I haven't even seen things move as far into the woo of working with plants as Schulke's books do. Â Hell, the one workshop at the last Thresholds I attended that was actually supposed to explicitly deal with permaculture as a form/system of elven magic was canceled with the remark that “everyone here already gets it”.
I'm dismayed by the seeming lack of interest in magic and memories and such as well, but I've been reminded in the past that not all otherkin are actually of magic-using type, so it's not fair to expect everyone to be interested in magic and woo-woo stuff here and now
I'll confess, I haven't met a ton of non magic-using otherkin. Â Most of the ones I have were tech-oriented so we were able to discuss non-human technologies that in some cases included things that would be described here as magic. Â Even for those who practiced no magic of any stripe, though, I can't imagine they'd be especially served by forums/gatherings/workshops/etc that primarily discuss things you can easily find available for discussion among people who have no idea what otherkin are, rather than the experience of being otherkin itself. Â And I know I'd much rather discuss nonmagical but still nonhuman memories, worlds, and cultures at such events than to just open it up to x-random-thing that takes the fancy of a group of otherkin but doesn't actually relate back to being otherkin. Â That way lies otherkin knitting circles; which are fine if it's your thing but are not really about exploring what it is to *be* otherkin.
Elven vampires: Why not?
My issue was with claiming that vor'jen, specifically, equal elven vampires. Â I have no real problem with the basic idea of elven vampires.
The old Otherkin.net webweaving page – oh lol! Now there's a pastenblasten.
Yeah… I was reminded, when I was searching out all of the links for the otherkin link project, that it actually didn't even start out on otherkin.net. Â Miaren Crowsdaughter started it by hand on her website, and it migrated to otherkin.net once it got too big for her to handle on her own.
I miss a lot of the old-timers in the community, especially the ones that were out there DOING things to make it better: Â Miaren, K'Llayna, Magpie, even Tiernan despite all the fights I've had with her over the years. Â Eyovah, probably goes without saying. Â Probably others who I'm not thinking of too… there were a lot of old lists that are completely gone now. Â
Hell, I even miss some of the things Adara ran before she went nuts; there was a time when otherkingazette and elenari-and-friends were reasonably useful places. Â Sadly, everything she ran after creating HOPE, even the things that could have been decent like the Otherkin MSN community, tended to become just another front for HOPE (or HOPE-CORDE, or Paranexus, or whatever she was calling it next…) and a place to promote bizarre conspiracy theories about coming human-otherkin wars.
In general, there seem to be less people around actively trying to make the otherkin community a better place or help connect otherkin with each other.  The few brand-new message boards or mailing lists or livejournal communities that still seem to spring up seem mainly connected wtih satisfying the mod's ego.  Meetups seem to have replaced gatherings save in the case of a few of the older gathers who now have second gathers at other times of the year, like CtT and Feywood.  I can't remember the last time I saw someone new looking to organize a full-on gather or convention anywhere. Almost nobody seems to be “webweaving” anymore, either.  Overall, the community's not even Harmony and Discord anymore; just discord.  The “beautiful cacophony” has simply become a din.
And on that cheerful note: welcome Meirya! Â This is my take on how the community has changed, which I know you were interested in.
 By “current” I mean a flow of energy and being having a particular flavor, similar in basic concept to what are termed the “Seven Rays” in Theosophy (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S….._A._Bailey), or even to elemental energies. So the “elven current” is a kind of abstract concept of “elvenness”.
Beyond “pointy eared and long lived”, I'm not sure there is an abstract concept of elvenness, much less an archetypal/universal flow of energy having an elven flavor. Â Hell, I'm not even sure the pointy ears are necessary; I parse the Minbari from Babalon 5 as rather elven, due to certain similarities with the elven cultures I remember.
Obviously not all elves are the same, nor am I saying they ultimately some from a single “root race” (although maybe; there's ideas like that about human races on various planets all ultimately seeded from one place), but there is something about each example of the set that makes us decide it has enough in common to be a member of the set and thus apply the label. There is an elvish “note” or “thread”.
I'm not opposed to the idea that elves originated from a single place. Â Some of the remembered words, coupled with my own memories and memories that some friends related to me, seem to point to this; Ceshar on my world meant “goodbye”. Â Ceshtanen in Tulari meant “erased completely”. Â I and others from my elven family remember a general ban on advanced technology on my world, along with some other things that make me suspect we were refugees from another world with significantly more advanced technology. Â And one of my friends remembers a Tuatha or “proto-Tuatha” world called Keshara which was destroyed (a little unclear how). Â I personally interpret these breadcrumbs as signs that the Aloryan elves and the Tulari (possibly even all of the disparate Elenari groups) originated as refugees from Keshara and share a genetic heritage with the Tuatha. Â I've also been told by others that there's a connection between Aloryan elves and the Ljossalfar though I'm still looking into that. Â Theoretically, what we call elves could all originate from a single place.
 That said, I'm really not convinced that there's any single thread that runs through all elves beyond rough phenotype and possibly a certain degree of genotype if the common origin theory is true.  How much is that worth here on earth, where we know all humans (and indeed all terrestrial life) share a common ancestor?
And this whole “I hug trees and protect the environment” thing often seems to come along with the package or strand when it pops up in elven otherkin on Earth in many cases, even if it might not make logical sense re: the facts of their actual other lives (if applicable).
 I don't think we even have data that establishes correlation, much less causation.  I know a number of elves who don't do well at all in natural settings and need the presence of technology to thrive.  And even among those who do “hug trees and protect the environment” how much of that is a function of being elves, and how much is a function of being liberal and/or neopagan first-world humans?
Um, I don't see how “for me it's an entirely psychological phenomenon” equates to “therefore, I am labelling myself as mentally unstable”. Psychological base != mental disorder.
What else would it be? Â If you think your otherkinness has no basis in reality or metaphysics, that it's all in your head, what is that if not a delusion?
Yes, I think it is possible for someone to “tune in” and “become” – but possibly not 100% from scratch, and it's not as easy as “ommm, ommm, now I'm an elf”. It is a conscious process of magical transformation which might never end throughout one's lifetime. In fact, I think all otherkin are doing this to one degree or another.
Just chiming in to say that I agree with the part about becoming an elf through conscious magical transformation, but not with the interpretation that it involves tuning into an abstract current of elvenness. Â I think you'd need to get much more specific; ljossalfar for example, or Tulari, etc. Â I just don't think Generic Elf works very well as an archetype.
The other part of your explanation didn't really make sense to me. Â This in particular seemed contradictory: “Not exactly “it's merely this one thing that makes you an elf” but if you are an elf you will have it, and if you are not, you will not.”
 But this is what I meant by on Earth right now – of course there are exceptions, but it just seems to be the case that the “elven flavor” we have here often is connected with trees. It is not that I am assuming this – it's that I've observed it to be common.
I think you'd probably observe the same thing to be common in the modern neopagan and newage communities completely outside the groups that identify as elves, fae, or otherkin of any stripe. Â And most (not all, but most) otherkin are still neopagan or newage.
One of the things that really gets to me about the idea that this connection with permaculture and environmentalism comes from being elven is this: not one of the elves who claims this semi-mystical connection is a pioneer in the field of permaculture. Â Not one seems to be innovating new methods of conservation, new techniques for sustainability, or new “green” technologies. Â Instead, they seem to fanboy (and fangirl) over permaculture techniques developed by people who identify entirely as human, such as Bill Mollison or Ianto Evans.
Another is simply this: ten years ago you didn't see all of the elves into permaculture. Â Ashran's workshop on EarthShips at WtT3 or 4 was the first mention of permaculture I know of in the otherkin community. Â Then Rialian got interested in it, then others. Â Outside of that group, I don't see it discussed much. Â It's not, to my knowledge, a topic of much conversation among the Elenari elves as of the last time I was a member of their forums. Â Nor among most elven otherkin I see on various message boards. Â To me, that's really enough to indicate it's a fad among a specific group of elves, most of whom are connected with Rialian in some way.
Â
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I… um… you… *stares* Coherent intelligent discussion. About otherkin. About stuff that I don't see cycle through every few months on all the forums out there.
I think I love you people.
Anyway. Hi! I'm Meirya, or Meir. I've been in and out of the community since 2002. I identify primarily as a rough-legged hawk, Buteo lagopus. There's also an archetypal sort of identification with phoenix that I don't talk about much. Call it the best descriptor I've found for my path, quality of spirit/energy, etc; here's the best description I've managed.
I'm terrible at introductions. Let's see. 25 years old, genderqueer, generally queer. Background in psychology, and I'm interviewing for grad school (transpersonal counseling psychology, so excited) in about a week. Kemetic pagan, though that's sort of on hold for a while due to recently initiating into a Golden Dawn temple… it's like taking college classes in occultism, seriously!
…I will have to post more later, I have some responses to some of the fascinating discussion in this thread, but I'm on my lunch break and have run out of time.
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Meirya said:
I… um… you… *stares* Coherent intelligent discussion. About otherkin. About stuff that I don't see cycle through every few months on all the forums out there.
I think I love you people.
 *grins* Now that is the reaction I like seeing when new people join this forum. 🙂  Glad you like what you've seen so far, I've been doing my best to keep discussions here on-topic and reasonably high-quality and not just regurgitating more of the same stuff that you see on every otherkin forum.  🙂  New topic ideas are always welcome too though!
Anyway. Hi! I'm Meirya, or Meir. I've been in and out of the community since 2002. I identify primarily as a rough-legged hawk, Buteo lagopus. There's also an archetypal sort of identification with phoenix that I don't talk about much. Call it the best descriptor I've found for my path, quality of spirit/energy, etc; here's the best description I've managed.
Hi there! 🙂 Â Very nice to meet you! 🙂
I'm terrible at introductions.
*chuckles* Me too, no worries.
Let's see. 25 years old, genderqueer, generally queer. Background in psychology, and I'm interviewing for grad school (transpersonal counseling psychology, so excited) in about a week. Kemetic pagan, though that's sort of on hold for a while due to recently initiating into a Golden Dawn temple… it's like taking college classes in occultism, seriously!
Cool 🙂 Â Welcome to the forum. 🙂
…I will have to post more later, I have some responses to some of the fascinating discussion in this thread, but I'm on my lunch break and have run out of time.
No problem, it'll be here when you get back. 🙂 Â Things are pretty relaxed around here, it can go a few days (or even a week) between replies to a thread then pick right back up. Â And we're still fairly active compared to the old lists. 🙂
Â
Jarandhel Dreamsinger said:
Third grade during 9/11?  Gods, I feel old…
Well, I’m 17 an’ 3/4ths now…18 in June. And I finished high school rather early, so ten years ago I would’ve been in 3rd grade. 😛 I guess you would have been about 20 then? Ja, most elderly. 😉 But I know what you mean. 🙂
Oh, don't let it fool you, there was quite a bit of tension and drama in the community even then, and more than a few trolls too.  But something was different… it was easier to find people to connect with, somehow.  Most of the people I still really deeply consider Family in the community I found during that period.
*nods*. I still remember when I first found this place. I was quite impressed, and I felt more than anything else, that this was a thing I could connect with – and still do, as I think I’ve expressed before.
Hell, I even miss some of the things Adara ran before she went nuts; there was a time when otherkingazette and elenari-and-friends were reasonably useful places.  Sadly, everything she ran after creating HOPE, even the things that could have been decent like the Otherkin MSN community, tended to become just another front for HOPE (or HOPE-CORDE, or Paranexus, or whatever she was calling it next…) and a place to promote bizarre conspiracy theories about coming human-otherkin wars.
This was the cult of which you spoke, no? I’d like to learn more about this, if you don’t mind telling me. My email was acting up when I was trying to type out my reply to the original message where you mentioned that, unfortunately, so it might not have sent properly.
Overall, the community's not even Harmony and Discord anymore; just discord. Â The “beautiful cacophony” has simply become a din.
*pats*.
Beyond “pointy eared and long lived”, I'm not sure there is an abstract concept of elvenness, much less an archetypal/universal flow of energy having an elven flavor. Â Hell, I'm not even sure the pointy ears are necessary; I parse the Minbari from Babalon 5 as rather elven, due to certain similarities with the elven cultures I remember.
Yes, there is a familiarity there…
I'm not opposed to the idea that elves originated from a single place. Â Some of the remembered words, coupled with my own memories and memories that some friends related to me, seem to point to this; Ceshar on my world meant “goodbye”. Â Ceshtanen in Tulari meant “erased completely”. Â I and others from my elven family remember a general ban on advanced technology on my world, along with some other things that make me suspect we were refugees from another world with significantly more advanced technology. Â And one of my friends remembers a Tuatha or “proto-Tuatha” world called Keshara which was destroyed (a little unclear how). Â I personally interpret these breadcrumbs as signs that the Aloryan elves and the Tulari (possibly even all of the disparate Elenari groups) originated as refugees from Keshara and share a genetic heritage with the Tuatha. Â I've also been told by others that there's a connection between Aloryan elves and the Ljossalfar though I'm still looking into that. Â Theoretically, what we call elves could all originate from a single place.
This is also familiar to me. OT, but how could one know for sure that they come from Alorya? I mean, I know certain things about my world and my species of elves, and there seem to be strong similarities, but how would I definitely know? There’s not as much written about them as say, the Tulari. 🙁
I think you'd probably observe the same thing to be common in the modern neopagan and newage communities completely outside the groups that identify as elves, fae, or otherkin of any stripe. Â And most (not all, but most) otherkin are still neopagan or newage.
*nodnod*. This is a good point.
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I guess the thing to do here is introduce ourselves here…
I am a friend of Meirya’s, but it seems that several other people I know have been here for quite some time o_O
I am a spirit worker and author/editor on the website Weaving Wyrd. I identify as Alfar, but have traditionally had very little contact with otherkin communities.
So, um, hi!
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First, a continuation of my introduction:
My particular areas of interest regarding otherkin is functionality and meaning. How being other affects us now, in this life; how being “other” in some way affects our ability to function, for better or for worse, and how to optimally function in this time/culture/life as otherkin; and what meaning we make of our otherness. I try not to get caught up as much in trying to figure out “real or not real?” because there's no way to be certain; more important, I feel, is to figure out “useful or not useful?” Like someone (I think it was Jarandhel) said earlier up: What is the point of identifying as otherkin? I don't think past lives are the “point”. But I do think finding meaning, and the experience, and being impacted by it, is an important component of being Other. If that makes any sense.
Jarandhel Dreamsinger said:
In general, there seem to be less people around actively trying to make the otherkin community a better place or help connect otherkin with each other.  The few brand-new message boards or mailing lists or livejournal communities that still seem to spring up seem mainly connected wtih satisfying the mod's ego.  Meetups seem to have replaced gatherings save in the case of a few of the older gathers who now have second gathers at other times of the year, like CtT and Feywood.  I can't remember the last time I saw someone new looking to organize a full-on gather or convention anywhere. Almost nobody seems to be “webweaving” anymore, either.  Overall, the community's not even Harmony and Discord anymore; just discord.  The “beautiful cacophony” has simply become a din.
And on that cheerful note: welcome Meirya! Â This is my take on how the community has changed, which I know you were interested in.
Interesting! I can see your point in that. I was never really involved in much of the offline parts of the community, save for the many otherkin I “collected” (ie: someone offline pinged to me as otherkin, I talked to them for a while, and discovered that they identified as other in some way, though usually weren't involved in the otherkin community online) over the years, and House Kheperu's open house for the past several years, which is… vampire/energy work house that is very otherkin friendly. So not an otherkin gather per say.
So most of my experience of the community has been of the online portion – which I would say has become partitioned and oftentimes rigid. It's interesting to me that the otherkin portion has become more skeptical and critical, while the therian community has gotten a little more relaxed. I'm not 100% sure it's a bad thing or a good thing – but I will agree with the decline in intracommunity connection. It seems a lot harder to find good nifty folk. That could however be exposure bias; I have been rather less active in the community than I once was, and thus am less likely to connect with people.
Jarandhel Dreamsinger said:
What else would it be? Â If you think your otherkinness has no basis in reality or metaphysics, that it's all in your head, what is that if not a delusion?
Just because something is “all in your head” doesn't mean it has no basis in reality. Quite the contrary: What's in our heads defines our reality. Perception and memory are incredibly malleable, changeable things, and they're all we really have to base our concept of reality on.
Let's say I have the experience of being wolf (I'm not, but let's go with it as an example). Say my thought patterns, behaviors, and mannerisms could be called wolf-like, or it is useful/helpful for me to frame them as “wolf”. I experience the tactile sense of phantom limbs that correspond to a wolf's anatomy. And so on.
Thus I identify as wolf. But let's say I don't think it's spiritual or energetic or any such thing; I think it's just manifestations of neurons firing, personal associations regarding parts of the human experience – yet it's meaningful to me and helpful to frame those experiences in the context of “wolf”.
Not a delusion at all, in such a case.
Now, as for myself – I go through cycles of doubt and belief, but even in my doubt cycles – if I am honest with myself, really – I view my personal otherness, and otherness in general, as having an energetic and spiritual component. But I can frame it in a purely psychological context, and I can understand taking a purely psychological approach to it.
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Jarandhel Dreamsinger said:
What else would it be? Â If you think your otherkinness has no basis in reality or metaphysics, that it's all in your head, what is that if not a delusion?
I tend to like the title of Lon Milo DuQuette’s book Low Magick: It’s All In Your Head… You Just Have No Idea How Big Your Head Is.
Does identifying it as a delusion help in any way?
Hrafn said:
I guess the thing to do here is introduce ourselves here…
I am a friend of Meirya’s, but it seems that several other people I know have been here for quite some time o_O
I am a spirit worker and author/editor on the website Weaving Wyrd. I identify as Alfar, but have traditionally had very little contact with otherkin communities.
So, um, hi!
Hi there. 🙂 I like the title of your site! And I’m totally the same about having little contact with otherkin communities, basically didn’t jump in until a good 4 years after I started awakening. 😛
Meirya said:
Like someone (I think it was Jarandhel) said earlier up: What is the point of identifying as otherkin? I don't think past lives are the “point”. But I do think finding meaning, and the experience, and being impacted by it, is an important component of being Other. If that makes any sense.
I do feel that the past lives themselves matter (not that I have great memories of any, but I do think that they matter as much as the experience gained, impact had, etc.) In other words, I don’t think it’s necessary to separate the actual life from the “results” or the “aftermath” so to speak, and I wouldn’t want to. If I did, I’m not sure what the point would be of identifying as an elf, or trying to remember more about who I was. And finding the meaning and actively *engaging* in the impact that some life has had upon me is an important component of being a sentient being, period.
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Liryen said:
*nods*. I still remember when I first found this place. I was quite impressed, and I felt more than anything else, that this was a thing I could connect with – and still do, as I think I've expressed before.
I'm really really glad of that. Â It's what I've been trying to create here, a place where some of the old connections can still take place. Â A place where some of the people who were active in the early days of the community but who have distanced themselves for one reason or another might feel comfortable returning. And some of them, like casteylan, have.
This was the cult of which you spoke, no? I'd like to learn more about this, if you don't mind telling me. My email was acting up when I was trying to type out my reply to the original message where you mentioned that, unfortunately, so it might not have sent properly.
Yes it was. Â I'm not sure if I got that reply or not, it might be buried in my email somewhere. Â I was trying to write up something on the whole thing with HOPE, but I was having trouble since it's been over a decade now… I'd like to refresh my memory on some points, but most of the primary resources are gone. Â That's a problem in another way too since I don't want people to have to take my word on what happened. Â It's way too easy for that to turn into a he-said, she-said kind of situation. Â I'd like to be able to point to actual documentation and evidence. Â Unfortunately there's not a ton left around. Â Even many of the lists where things were originally discussed have since gone the way of the dodo. Â I've got a little bit still archived in various places, but really not much anymore.
This is also familiar to me. OT, but how could one know for sure that they come from Alorya? I mean, I know certain things about my world and my species of elves, and there seem to be strong similarities, but how would I definitely know? There's not as much written about them as say, the Tulari. 🙁
Part of that is because there have never been many of us in the community. Â Originally it was Arhuaine, Casteylan, Anadrael, Firebird, me and Eyovah. Â Maybe two or three others, but we were never really sure. Â Eyovah passed away, Anadrael and Firebird don't really hang out in the community much anymore that I've seen, and Cas has distanced himself except for this forum and the WanderingPaths email list. Â In the years since, I've found two others who definitely remember Alorya, and one person who I remember being there but who doesn't remember being there himself at this time.
Another part is that we've been burned a few times. Â For instance: Anadrael was Arhuaine's mate in their elven lives, and is her husband in this life. Â They already found one another and extensively discussed their memories together. Â Yet some skeevy guy found Arhuaine's writings about her memories online and started hitting on her claiming to have been Anadrael on Alorya. Â That was an obvious case, but there have been others that were more subtle. Â Holding a lot back has made it easier for us to verify the claims of people who say they're from Alorya. Â On the other hand, I know it's made it harder for people to find out enough about Alorya to say whether or not they're from there. Â I've been working on striking a balance. Â There are key facts about Alorya, and about each event I remember, which I won't share publicly. Â I'd give examples, but that would rather defeat the purpose. Â Apart from those, however, I try to share a good bit. Â The Aloryan Glossary is one thing I wanted to put out there to help people get a better feel for whether or not they might be from Alorya. Â The Dancing with Memory article is another. Â I may sit down at some point with a few of the other people who are definitely from Alorya and try to write an Aloryan FAQ, as an adjunct to the tiny bit written about us in the Elenari FAQ. Â There's also been a bit more public in the past than there is now; Arhuaine used to have some of her memories up on the ORC, for instance. Â She also had a personal webpage but I believe it's gone now. Â Cas (if you're still reading this), is your one still up?
Also, just as a small note, I would take a great deal of what is written about the Tulari with a boatload of salt. Â At least, if it's written where I think it is. Â (Adrastai.com?)
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Hrafn said:
I guess the thing to do here is introduce ourselves here…
Hi there! 🙂 Â And yes, that seems to be the way things have gone. Â Theoretically, everyone was supposed to make their own intro threads in this section, like is standard on most boards, but everyone's just been introducing themselves on this one and it's worked so far. 🙂 Â It's also wandered a bit far away from just introductions in part… but the conversation has been good, so I'm not inclined
I am a friend of Meirya's, but it seems that several other people I know have been here for quite some time o_O
Oh? Â Like who? 🙂
I am a spirit worker and author/editor on the website Weaving Wyrd. I identify as Alfar, but have traditionally had very little contact with otherkin communities.
Cool. 🙂 Â And yeah, there seem to be a lot of people out there who identify as some form of nonhuman but who either have not had contact with the community or who have distanced themselves from it. Â I'm glad you found our forum to be worth a look. 🙂
So, um, hi!
 Hi! 🙂
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Jarandhel Dreamsinger said
Oh? Like who? 🙂
Specifically I know I’ve previously corresponded with technobushi and ViridianElf (who hasn’t been around in about a year, but still), the latter of which is who I originally got “elf is a gender” from.
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Liryen said:
I do feel that the past lives themselves matter (not that I have great memories of any, but I do think that they matter as much as the experience gained, impact had, etc.) In other words, I don't think it's necessary to separate the actual life from the “results” or the “aftermath” so to speak, and I wouldn't want to. If I did, I'm not sure what the point would be of identifying as an elf, or trying to remember more about who I was. And finding the meaning and actively *engaging* in the impact that some life has had upon me is an important component of being a sentient being, period.
I would say that yes, past lives can matter – but they are not the sole and major point of being otherkin, IMO. (Especially for those of us who don't feel our otherness has its root in past lives. Not all otherkin are caused by reincarnation.)
I think it's important to maintain a balance between then and now. Our history makes us who we are today, but if we continually dwell in the past, we neglect who we are now and who we can become. Learning your history (whether it be cultural, personal, familial, past life, present life) is helpful to avoid repeating the mistakes of the past and to learn your roots, to see what has influenced you, and perhaps to overcome some of the less positive influences of your past – it's hard to resolve traumatic memories that you can't recall, for instance. But becoming obsessed with your past, pushing to recover old memories (which, I can tell you right now, based on solid psychology studies, will more likely just give you false memories), romanticizing the old life or giving it higher importance than this life as I've seen far too many people do, is not useful and not functional and does a disservice to your experience now.
Not that anyone here falls into that trap – but that's part of what I mean when I say “past lives are not THE point” to being otherkin. Part of the point for many people, perhaps, but I strongly feel they should not be the entire “point”.
Personally, I make a point to not attempt to remember past lives. The few memories that have come up unbidden have been seriously traumatic and have heavily impacted me in this life (and thus I'm sort of grateful the memories did come up, they answered some questions of why I have certain issues, and it helped with working through those issues) – but if that's all I've remembered, I'm not too keen on looking for more information. Other people have very different experiences of course.
Jarandhel Dreamsinger said:
Yes it was. Â I'm not sure if I got that reply or not, it might be buried in my email somewhere.
Heh, that’s fine – IIRC it was fairly angsty, and I’d probably phrase some of the things I said a bit differently. ^_^
I was trying to write up something on the whole thing with HOPE, but I was having trouble since it's been over a decade now… I'd like to refresh my memory on some points, but most of the primary resources are gone. Â That's a problem in another way too since I don't want people to have to take my word on what happened. Â It's way too easy for that to turn into a he-said, she-said kind of situation. Â I'd like to be able to point to actual documentation and evidence. Â Unfortunately there's not a ton left around. Â Even many of the lists where things were originally discussed have since gone the way of the dodo. Â I've got a little bit still archived in various places, but really not much anymore.
You’ve mentioned that before, I believe…I’m kind of curious about the whole thing now, but I see your point…
Part of that is because there have never been many of us in the community. Â Originally it was Arhuaine, Casteylan, Anadrael, Firebird, me and Eyovah. Â Maybe two or three others, but we were never really sure. Â Eyovah passed away, Anadrael and Firebird don't really hang out in the community much anymore that I've seen, and Cas has distanced himself except for this forum and the WanderingPaths email list. Â In the years since, I've found two others who definitely remember Alorya, and one person who I remember being there but who doesn't remember being there himself at this time.
That’s even less than I expected; still, it’s not exactly as if there are tons of people claiming to be elves to begin with. 
Another part is that we've been burned a few times. Â For instance: Anadrael was Arhuaine's mate in their elven lives, and is her husband in this life. Â They already found one another and extensively discussed their memories together. Â Yet some skeevy guy found Arhuaine's writings about her memories online and started hitting on her claiming to have been Anadrael on Alorya. Â That was an obvious case, but there have been others that were more subtle. Â Holding a lot back has made it easier for us to verify the claims of people who say they're from Alorya.
*Nods*. I’m trying to remember as much as possible, but some of it will (no doubt) only come with time. Or not at all. I prize every little bit that I can get, and hopefully it’ll all fit together someday.
I've been working on striking a balance. Â There are key facts about Alorya, and about each event I remember, which I won't share publicly. Â I'd give examples, but that would rather defeat the purpose. Â Apart from those, however, I try to share a good bit. Â The Aloryan Glossary is one thing I wanted to put out there to help people get a better feel for whether or not they might be from Alorya. Â The Dancing with Memory article is another.
Some of the remembered language is definitely very familiar; the memories, while lovely of course, are your own – is there any way to describe the ‘feel’ of the place, or the spirit?
I may sit down at some point with a few of the other people who are definitely from Alorya and try to write an Aloryan FAQ, as an adjunct to the tiny bit written about us in the Elenari FAQ.
Are we you technically considered Elenari at all? I’ve heard at times there’s a connection, other times there isn’t.
Also, just as a small note, I would take a great deal of what is written about the Tulari with a boatload of salt. Â At least, if it's written where I think it is. Â (Adrastai.com?)
…Yes and no. I’ve seen that, but to be fair there are also some memories and other writings at http://elvenportal.weebly.com/. There are many places where my own opinion differs from that of the authors of both sites, and I know how you feel about Ahril’s stuff, but even so I’ve never seen it refuted by any of the main group calling themselves Elenari – in fact, Adrastai.com is featured along with TirNanOc and Otherkin.net on the homepage of the Elenari Nexus, as one of its ‘sister sites’. My assumption based on this has been that there must be grains of fact, at least, where her statements about the Tulari and their culture are concerned.
Meirya said:
I would say that yes, past lives can matter – but they are not the sole and major point of being otherkin, IMO. (Especially for those of us who don't feel our otherness has its root in past lives. Not all otherkin are caused by reincarnation.)
*nods*. I realize this, but I also think that it can be hard to define the “point” of being otherkin. It doesn’t pay our bills or otherwise contribute to our lives in some concrete sense; it’s a lot more like being genderqueer, for example. It just “is”. I think the point may be to understand it, and to accept it – retrieving past life memories can be one way to understand it. Of course, for ‘kin who don’t believe in reincarnation (though I can’t think if I’ve ever met/seen any, off the top of my head), or who attribute their otherness to some other cause, it doesn’t even come into the picture. However, for me and a lot of other people, it does.
I think it's important to maintain a balance between then and now. Our history makes us who we are today, but if we continually dwell in the past, we neglect who we are now and who we can become.
I wasn’t suggesting that we ought to continually dwell in the past! Striking a balance is definitely very important, and as such I think it’s perfectly possible to have the best of both worlds – to know the past, in the deepest possible sense of the word, but also to keep chasing our dreams today.
Learning your history (whether it be cultural, personal, familial, past life, present life) is helpful to avoid repeating the mistakes of the past and to learn your roots, to see what has influenced you, and perhaps to overcome some of the less positive influences of your past – it's hard to resolve traumatic memories that you can't recall, for instance.
What about the sentimental value of happy memories, though? Again, I’m not suggesting going off the deep end and becoming obsessed with the past in an unhealthy way. What I’m trying to express is more that just because it isn’t “useful” to us anymore doesn’t make it useless – if that makes sense.
But becoming obsessed with your past, pushing to recover old memories (which, I can tell you right now, based on solid psychology studies, will more likely just give you false memories), romanticizing the old life or giving it higher importance than this life as I've seen far too many people do, is not useful and not functional and does a disservice to your experience now.
I’ve never considered pushing to recover memories a negative thing. For this reason, I’m a member of the Lostkin Project, and I quote:
“This list’s purpose is to provide help to those otherkin (be they elf, dragon, were, or any other type) who are aware of what they are but do not have any proof, even for themselves. Our goal is to discover ways to bring these proofs to our attention and hopefully catalog and reproduce the experience in others.” (Emphasis mine)
Many of us there would love to recover our memories, no matter what they are about, and are actively trying to do so.
Personally, I make a point to not attempt to remember past lives. The few memories that have come up unbidden have been seriously traumatic and have heavily impacted me in this life (and thus I'm sort of grateful the memories did come up, they answered some questions of why I have certain issues, and it helped with working through those issues) – but if that's all I've remembered, I'm not too keen on looking for more information. Other people have very different experiences of course.
I would never look down on anyone for not trying to remember past lives, I just expect the same freedom in return. Personally, even if I recovered extremely traumatic stuff I would still keep pushing to remember the good things, too. I feel that they’re both there, but I’ll cross those bridges when I come to them.
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Liryen said:
“This list’s purpose is to provide help to those otherkin (be they elf, dragon, were, or any other type) who are aware of what they are but do not have any proof, even for themselves. Our goal is to discover ways to bring these proofs to our attention and hopefully catalog and reproduce the experience in others.”
There are three basic problems I have with initiatives such as this (Northern Tradition Spirit Workers started calling it “peer corroborated personal gnosis” or PCPG):
1) Most of the time we are operating from similar cultural contexts which invariably biases our results toward what people from our cultural context will remember. This not just works for “true” memories but also for “false” memories, and it isn’t a far stretch to think that we might experience the same thing because we are operating within a similar belief and cultural framework.
2) As an extension of #1 It is very, very easy doing this sort of thing to have one’s perceptions contaminated by outside sources. So, for example, Kaldera reports there being a goat and a stag on top of a roof of Valhalla. This goat has a name–Heiðrún–and I knew the moment I read it that it appeared in the Eddas (both in Snorri and in GrÃmnismál).
So now there is a conundrum. Did he see it because he heard about it in GrÃmnismál? If I traveled to Valhalla and I saw “something” on the roof I couldn’t identify, would I go back the next time, look closer, and see a goat? If I traveled and didn’t see anything, would I be sufficiently honest to reveal this, and would it mean anything that I hadn’t?
There are protocols that help ameliorate this situation, but my experience is that most people who aren’t trained have trouble implementing these protocols even when they seem like a good idea. I do think that these protocols are a good thing, and to a greater extent it doesn’t matter (I’ll get to this in a minute), but it is very easy to attribute increased confidence to something that is sufficiently flawed that it really shouldn’t generate increased confidence that we are dealing with something truly factual.
3) Emphasis on the Past can interfere with the broader search for meaning. For the most part I believe what matters is Living As We Are, whatever that happens to be, and so I am always far more interested in manifestations and living with consequences (e.g., I have a tendency that I found out a few days ago is shared with many others who identify as Elven or Alfar to develop a need to go walkabout, great, having established that how can I work with it in a modern society?)
That all having been said: I also believe that there are pretty firm risks. It would not do to be engaged in past life memory retrieval, remember a few particularly viivid fragments from a (the) war, and end up traumatized from it: There are probably reasons why Urd erases our memories, even if that erasure isn’t complete.
It probably is not a bad idea for anyone engaged in such to be seeing a therapist or at least have an established relationship with one. Regardie recommended anyone engaging in occult work go through a course of therapy first, and both he and Fortune would firmly classify past life memories with occult work.
Now, with that in mind, I think there is some value in mythmaking, shared gnosis, and all of that good stuff so long as we recognize that is what we are doing. There’s also value in finding past-life memories, so long as the pitfalls are well understood and all participants are willing to approach the subject with detachment, maturity, humility, and with the mindset that this is about meaning and not about whether those memories are themselves objectively true. I like Dion Fortune’s use of the term “Objective Imagination” for a lot of things in the occult realm, and past life memories certainly fall under that mantle. My theory largely parallels Lupa’s theory on Shamanism and Subjectivity:
But what’s the point of trying to judge the objective reality of the experiences themselves? Sure, I can discuss the conflation of neoshamanisms with indigenous shamanisms, and explain that certain practices found in the former are in no way, shape or form a part of any of the latter. But how can I judge whether someone else’s journey was valid for them or not? And, more importantly, does it really matter whether it’s valid for me if it’s not my experience (and I’m not the client or otherwise involved)?
[…]
So–at this point, my running theory is that spiritual realities are largely subjective, and any objectivity is hidden to some extent by subjective perceptions. The quest for objectivity, in addition, is overrated.
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